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Anybody?
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Author:  havoc [ 10.29.10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Anybody?
yea and what makes you think quantum physics is stupid?
Author:  natirips [ 10.29.10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Anybody?
havoc wrote:
yea and what makes you think quantum physics is stupid?

I think it's stupid, but it's also useful. Most modern microchips are as efficient as they are thanks to it.
Author:  eXtr33m [ 10.29.10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Anybody?
OHhh this is awful..



Watch this vid @ Youtube (new Window)

cuz of this i write... but i see this video is just a shitty lie.

+ one another link

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/01/2 ... ement.html

aaaand to the quantum mechanics => when you dont know the state of something (which has two possible states) it doesnt mean it is in 'third' state..

Also I dont like to believe that there exist some Random thing... and i dont think nobody can ever prove that
Author:  havoc [ 10.29.10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Anybody?
natirips wrote:
I think it's stupid, but it's also useful. Most modern microchips are as efficient as they are thanks to it.

no, microchips have nothing to do with quantum physics/mechanics yet. they are still plain old transistors, just very small. but we are getting there, slowly.

eXtr33m wrote:
OHhh this is awful..



Watch this vid @ Youtube (new Window)

cuz of this i write... but i see this video is just a shitty lie.

+ one another link

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/01/2 ... ement.html

aaaand to the quantum mechanics => when you dont know the state of something (which has two possible states) it doesnt mean it is in 'third' state..

Also I dont like to believe that there exist some Random thing... and i dont think nobody can ever prove that


but i have some questions:

what makes you say the video is a lie? true its retarded, but its for kids anyway

wtf means that - "when you dont know the state of something (which has two possible states) it doesnt mean it is in 'third' state.."

and wtf means that - "Also I dont like to believe that there exist some Random thing... and i dont think nobody can ever prove that"

what is that Random thing?
Author:  eXtr33m [ 10.29.10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Anybody?
1)The video says when you have entangled electrons you change a spin of one the spin of second one changed too which i think in a practical way could lead transferring real informations faster then light..

2)Schrodinger's cat -> Cat is neither alive, neither dead it is half dead and half alive. (AFAIK)

3) Random thing is a thing which happened absolutely without any pattern. It would mean the world dont have exact future.
Author:  natirips [ 10.29.10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Anybody?
eXtr33m wrote:
Also I dont like to believe that there exist some Random thing... and i dont think nobody can ever prove that
"Randomness" of the fate of all particles in the universe is only one out of many possible explanations. This one happens to be standard, but not all physicists agree with that. Just like not everyone in a country thinks their president was the best possible choice, only the majority that voted for him does.

Now, I'll try to explain what and where exactly quantum physics is. It's "under development", unlike the kinetic theory of gases (for example). So not all the quantum phenomena were discovered yet, and heck, the so-called "standard model" (what we think particles are and how they behave) doesn't even include gravity*.

Classic physics:
When you have a gas (billions of atoms/molecules) there is a chance (probability) one of them will hit the wall at given speed and given spot. We do know the basic laws of how each atom/molecule moves (thanks to sir Isaac Newton). But there is still no way of telling where each and every atom/molecule is, all we know is that there is a probability of atoms/molecules being somewhere and having some velocity (or momentum).

Quantum physics:
We know (statistically) what can happen based on the information we gathered so far, but we don't know exactly how each of the particles behave, all we know is statistical probability. Unfortunately for the time being that is all we can know about quantum particles.

Thus, the "random" is the result of statistics (since we honestly don't know, it is as good as random for us). Makes calculations and interpretation easier.

At least that's my version of Einstein's opinion**, and what I agree with him.

*Gravity is one of the greatest mysteries in modern physics. No one knows how it works. All we know is that F=G*m1*m2/r^2.

**Einstein's opinion was that quantum physics lacks knowledge of the basic principles (like Newton's laws are for classic physics).

havoc wrote:
natirips wrote:
I think it's stupid, but it's also useful. Most modern microchips are as efficient as they are thanks to it.

no, microchips have nothing to do with quantum physics/mechanics yet. they are still plain old transistors, just very small. but we are getting there, slowly.
While we may not have "quantum computers" from the sci-fi, our knowledge of how an electron behaves inside metals and semi-conductors would've been far from enough to construct a silicon-based chip without the knowledge gained from quantum physics.

eXtr33m wrote:
1)The video says when you have entangled electrons you change a spin of one the spin of second one changed too which i think in a practical way could lead transferring real informations faster then light..
AFAIK this phenomena (entanglement) is still being researched. They originally thought that neutrinos never slow down below the speed of light in vacuum, but we know now that they never exceed the speed of light in vacuum.
eXtr33m wrote:
2)Schrodinger's cat -> Cat is neither alive, neither dead it is half dead and half alive. (AFAIK)
Like I explained above, according to Einstein, this is only statistical prediction. Once we take a look at the cat, it will indeed be either dead or alive, and only either dead or alive.

The second postulate of quantum mechanics secretly and between the lines admits the fact that we don't understand quantum mechanics and that all we know is the statistical probability:
Liboff's 'Introductory quantum mechanics' (1980) wrote:
Measurement of the observable A that yields the value a leaves the system is the state φ_a, where φ_a is the eigenfunction of Ᾱ that corresponds to the eigenvalues a.
Sounds a bit outdated, but this is what they taught me at the university.

Edit: "φ_a" should be "φ" with index "a".

Oh, and for translation: when measuring something, the process of measurement has forced that something (i.e. the cat) into a realistic state (we found out if the cat is alive or dead, and it's "no longer both"). All this time we only didn't know if it was alive or dead so we couldn't tell anything better than statistics about the cat.

eXtr33m wrote:
3) Random thing is a thing which happened absolutely without any pattern. It would mean the world dont have exact future.
"Random" here is too often interpreted literally (unfortunately even by physicists). Random only means "we don't know exactly". At least according to Einstein, with whom I agree on this one.
Author:  eXtr33m [ 10.29.10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Anybody?
Thank you Naitirips, for answers!! :)

OK so now I understand they are idiots. When I was younger i thought at least scientist will be rational. Ye cuz it is important if Randomness exist or not. So they call it random only because they cant predict it.

I know about the statistics thing. But still WTF calling calculations of Probabilities something "new" and "amazing" (i mean so called "quantum physics")...
And so the cat is not half dead and half alive, it does not have a third state, we just know that chance it live is 1/(2^t) where t is number of periods she live..

And when i think of this i think we will never know the REAL distance between something... I mean you have to have units like cm but you know every unit isnt absolutely accurate..
Author:  havoc [ 10.29.10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Anybody?
no man, they not idiots.

anyhow, here mine, somewhat shorter answers:

1. yes, that means exactly that - transferring information faster than light. this doesnt mean the information "travels", like when a physical body (or particle) travels at some speed in the space. its a phenomenon (the whole universe is a phenomenon), theres big brainstorming going on on that topic now, we still lack understanding on it etc etc. just be patient, give it some time. sooner or later the mystery will be revealed. as for practical application in quantum computers, theres some success in trapping particle in a state (a simple write operation), unfortunately it leads us right into sci-fi tv series style of computers, you know, when the information is read once, it disappears from the original media, since the particle gets untrapped on read. but i guess they will find a way around this.

also, slightly off topic, moving at speed of light, pretty much as any other speed, is relative thing. like you can travel at speed of light in one direction, and me in the opposite direction, and you, relative to me, will move at 2x speed of light. same thing happens with most distant galaxies we (dont) observe - due to the inflation of space they move faster than speed of light relative to us, and even if their light travels towards us at speed of light, it cant reach us. ofc, otherwise the speed of light itself is a constant 300k km/sec or so. also, this kind of traveling beyond speed of light is a trick, but just look at it as a proof of concept thingy.

2. you missing one very important thing in the quantum science - the observer. what you really want to know is, is cat dead or alive before you open the box. whats the state of the particle before you observe it. you cant. simple as that. the cat or the particle is just in unknown state before you observe it.

3. random thing without any pattern cant exist in a place with time. once you have time, everything is cause-effect. like if a small meteorite hits your car, at first glance you can say its fukin random, but really if you have all the parameters, you could predict it by calculations.

also, its so nice to see young peoples like you are into science natirips. you really warmed my heart :)
Author:  natirips [ 10.29.10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Anybody?
havoc wrote:
unfortunately it leads us right into sci-fi tv series style of computers, you know, when the information is read once, it disappears from the original media
RAM modules used to be like that for a while. The workaround for the problem was a feedback loop on read to re-write the information for future use.

havoc wrote:
also, slightly off topic, moving at speed of light, pretty much as any other speed, is relative thing. like you can travel at speed of light in one direction, and me in the opposite direction, and you, relative to me, will move at 2x speed of light.
No, the two of you are traveling at light speed against each other. It's explained in Einstein's theory of relativity. If you have a space ship traveling in one direction at 0.99c, and another space ship traveling in opposite direction at 0.99c, and one of them sends a light signal, the other one will get the signal. Speed of light in vacuum and electrical charge are the only universal constants ever discovered so far.
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havoc wrote:
also, its so nice to see young peoples like you are into science natirips. you really warmed my heart :)
I am to teach kids in school about physics in a few years (hopefully). Apparently, I'm supposed to know at least something* about it. *Most of all, I am supposed to know how to (re)learn any information I may need in case I don't know it already or if I forgot something.
Author:  havoc [ 10.29.10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Anybody?
natirips wrote:
havoc wrote:
also, slightly off topic, moving at speed of light, pretty much as any other speed, is relative thing. like you can travel at speed of light in one direction, and me in the opposite direction, and you, relative to me, will move at 2x speed of light.
No, the two of you are traveling at light speed against each other. It's explained in Einstein's theory of relativity. If you have a space ship traveling in one direction at 0.99c, and another space ship traveling in opposite direction at 0.99c, and one of them sends a light signal, the other one will get the signal. Speed of light in vacuum and electrical charge are the only universal constants ever discovered so far.
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more like my first example was incorrect. second is right tho. actually galaxies move away at much slower speed, nothing like speed of light. but their light wont reach us ever (that is without breaking einstein's theory, since nothing is moving even close to the speed of light by itself in that example, even if we move away (relatively) from some fukin distant galaxy at speed exceeding c), due to the inflation of universe (note thats NOT just vacuum too, but also normal matter and dark matter). actually in a few billion years (just checked the number - 3 trillion years) we wont be able to observe the rest of the universe/other galaxies due to that. first tho there will be increase of the observable stuff, due to light of the closer ones reaching us with time (our "observable universe" bubble getting bigger).
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