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PostPosted: 12.09.09 
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SteveMcqueen wrote:
since almost nobody seems to know what to do when teams are "with too many players"...
this is what usually works for me:

- go spec
- !teams ( if it does not work right away, just wait like 10 seconds and use !teams again)
- once bot forced even teams, you usually can join the team of your choice.

Yes I do that sometimes too... It reminds me a !switch command I've seen on another server to switch 2 people at the same time, maybe it could help.

FragboySlim wrote:
I´ve no other chance to balance teams when nobody listens to my mesages that i !scream in also! Nothing happens its very annoying to see that on teams gets slaughtered by another one. And not why the teamplay of the good team is so "uber-perfect" its cause of 3 or 4 pro-skillerz are in one team and nobody changes to support the other team...

I know you have faced this issue many times Fragboy. IMO "pro" gamers should really help the opposite team, *especially moderators and admins*. But I'm not sure everybody agree on that : ok it's public server, but being slaughtered by the other team is part of the game after all. It's more a philosophical question...
eXeler0n wrote:
Can we implent a addon into b3 that he switch players, if the teams are unbalenced in skills?
In cs there are some functions i think.

if the point relation is over 2:1 b3 should change a good player from the good team into the bad team and a more worse player from bad team to good.

Again, we thought about that. Technically it wouldn't be a problem, but when you think about the criterion for balancing teams you first need to define what we really want. For example I consider that 250 to less than 200 as a final score is unbalanced game, but some people probably think different...

Even technically it's not so easy to implement that. Take the 2:1 threshold for example. Imagine teams score are 120 to 120. Then blue team doesn't score a single frag more. So score go to 240 to 120 -> ratio 2:1 so some good players are switched to the loosing team, but it's way too late... So I guess we have to take dynamic in account (how many frags on a given period of time). Here are a couple of notes I wrote some months ago about coding a real auto-balance plugin :
- based on xlrstats skill to get homogeneous teams ? (see http://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2436)
- based on skill per map, single player or group analysis ? (using coefficients we give to maps if they are uneven, average number of kills on the current map for the most skilled players, group analysis - skills according to combination of players)
- according to the total number of kills (experience)
- balancing frequency ? Frags/skills threshold, fixed period of time, variable period of time (more score checking at the beginning of the round)...

But using this kind of features would prevent great scenario, like when your team is loosing, you keep fragging and finally win... It happened to me 3 days ago, loosing on casa 70 to 50 then we won 250 to 220, so cool =)

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PostPosted: 12.09.09 
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Location: Berlin, Germany
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deaths: 269
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:) Thank you, Steve! I will try it next time I need to balance the teams.

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PostPosted: 12.09.09 
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Location: Prokuplje, SERBIA
FragboySlim wrote:
Hi!

as B3 moderator with level 40 i cannot use the !force Command to switch a player to a specific team. B3 always tells me that i have not enough rights. But i think this command should be useable as moderator also. A short story:

a few days ago i specced a little on the server, when Pharaoh, Ponczo and another 3rd player (i cannot remember) where in one team, in the other team where normals (not such Pros :) ) So i know what this means, when 3 skillers are in one team, the other team has no chance.
I wrote many times with B3 that one of them should plz change the team, but nothing happens, so the summary was a 250:97 on this map, and started again on the next map, a real massacre :-) a !teams command doesnt helped here, cause the playercount was balanced.



Sorry for being late with the response I am not often online due obligations.
I do not remember the round ... When I enter on the server I always choose the weaker team (by score), but I can't determine teams. Some players move in my team becouse they wan't play against me (not talking to this case because I really don't remember). Honestly I don't find interesting to play in the stronger team and I hate that way the game where we take the whole map. Even during round I change team and try to equal teams. (if score is like 90:56)
Also, I honestly apologize for this case and will try to not repeat, that we all should try.
I rarely read what someone send because I hate to chat during the round then you "slap" me in order to attract attention to me.

Sorry for bad English.

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PostPosted: 12.09.09 
IMO it is not possible to create a really good teamswitch plugin, as players skills also depend on the specific maps, but in a way that does not show up in the stats.

example:
algiers i am on red, rush the left flank as fast as i can, round after round, to prevent the enemy from closing on in on our spawn.
i die a lot, so my score is pretty fucked. but defending red bombplace is vital for red not to lose.
how can you get stats that reflect these things, in order to use them in the balance-plugin? as well you would also need to have an oversight on the medic skills of a player, to determine his teamplay value. scores may say something about this, but mostly when i am of importance teamplay-wise, myscores do ot reflect this in like 70% of all cases.



 


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PostPosted: 12.09.09 
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For teamscores a balance near at the end of a round isnt very usefull. But for the players its a better feeling. If my team is bad and they killed me or i get overrushed by the other team I'll quit the game after this round, because im pissed.
But if the game will get better, because a good player supports my team and i can play right, then I will play longer and have more fun.
And this depends not on the time of the round.

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PostPosted: 12.09.09 
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There are more factors here. Players score can be statistically correct, but what to do, if my score can be like 36:12 and can be 20:26. Now my total ratio is 1.22, but it depends a lot of how i feel at time of playing. And one other thing: teamwork. Let's say on red (wining) team you have two people who can cover each other and heal each other. Now, bot balances teams and splits this two guy (let's say they were best on red with score 25:7 and 22:9). Now, one of them starts to play worse since there is nobody to heal or to cover. But other (blue) team gets new positions with that new good player and starts to pwn red's ass. Lets say at beginning you had score 100:50, but blues were empowered and at end you get 250:175. It's still pwnage, especially if you look that blue with that player got 200:75, which is more than 2:1.

But this is not only situation. Can you make something that will change player's team 10 times in 10 minutes?

And what steve said goes here. There are players with so good score who don't help team a bit, and there are people with sucky score who help team a lot.

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PostPosted: 12.09.09 
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SteveMcqueen wrote:
example:
algiers i am on red, rush the left flank as fast as i can, round after round, to prevent the enemy from closing on in on our spawn.
i die a lot, so my score is pretty fucked. but defending red bombplace is vital for red not to lose.
how can you get stats that reflect these things, in order to use them in the balance-plugin? as well you would also need to have an oversight on the medic skills of a player, to determine his teamplay value. scores may say something about this, but mostly when i am of importance teamplay-wise, myscores do ot reflect this in like 70% of all cases.

Yes you are right, skills is only one parameter and healing is another one we can't use for the moment...
Ok personal skills != team skills, that's why maybe we could use combination of personal skills. Take your example on algiers. Personally I rush middle building/middle-right mostly, imagine someone on our team is sniping middle from the boxes (let's say humppa =), that means we have a not-so-bad positional team play. Assuming our personal xlr skills is a bit greater than the average on wurst, we can guess that our team won't get slaughtered (assuming macko isn't playing in the opposite team...) So next time this schema appears more or less the team play for our team may not be so bad on this map.
After a while, we have some statistics, like scores according to maps and combinations of players, then we can have an idea about how the game will evolve... Ok it's purely theoretical, and above all it's crazy to compute, but I think it would be a quite advanced method =)

AimMe wrote:
Lets say at beginning you had score 100:50, but blues were empowered and at end you get 250:175. It's still pwnage, especially if you look that blue with that player got 200:75, which is more than 2:1.

That's why dynamic is important...
AimMe wrote:
There are players with so good score who don't help team a bit, and there are people with sucky score who help team a lot.

It depends on how you define "help". It's TDM at the end : if you want to be in the winning team, better be with macko than with the most devoted medic :P

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PostPosted: 12.10.09 
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SvaRoX wrote:
It depends on how you define "help". It's TDM at the end : if you want to be in the winning team, better be with macko than with the most devoted medic :P


I never like to play with somebody who totally pwns server :) But natirips for example, helps on three ways:
1) He heals a lot
2) He catches bullets instead of me
3) When on opposite team i pwn him :)

Anyways, players like me who rush in some crazy part of map, or can go around enemy and hold some important position long enough to get reinforcement, leave tons of space and time for team.
I'll draw that:
Attachment:
File comment: rush
rush.jpg
rush.jpg [ 18.7 KiB | Viewed 5638 times ]

Let's say small passages are windows. I passed inside house (light blue dot), and lets say i killed one sniper, ignoring two peoples. Now, 3 snipers and two more guys turn to me, so doors are unwatched. I'll surely die, but two our players will catch then unprepared, two guys they will kill from back, snipers will be catched reloading/healing. I had score 1:1, but my team leads 7:1.

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PostPosted: 12.10.09 
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Joined: 04.13.09
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-----tdm:  
nick: [ntr]Shortly
skill: 497.05
kills: 3446
deaths: 4411
ratio: 0.78
-----bomb:  
nick: [ntr]Shortly
skill: 707.602
kills: 526
deaths: 863
ratio: 0.60
Yeah, I always help both teams: I help my teams because I often leave unfinished targets when I die making them easy frags for others, and I help the opposite team by shooting at my teammates that cross my line of fire. ;)

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PostPosted: 12.10.09 
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natirips wrote:
Yeah, I always help both teams: I help my teams because I often leave unfinished targets when I die making them easy frags for others, and I help the opposite team by shooting at my teammates that cross my line of fire. ;)

lol :) If I may give you an advice : remove the yellow cap ! (and take a helmet...)
AimMe wrote:
I never like to play with somebody who totally pwns server :) But natirips for example, helps on three ways:
1) He heals a lot
2) He catches bullets instead of me
3) When on opposite team i pwn him :)

You deserve to be slapped by your big brother !!!
AimMe wrote:
Let's say small passages are windows. I passed inside house (light blue dot), and lets say i killed one sniper, ignoring two peoples. Now, 3 snipers and two more guys turn to me, so doors are unwatched. I'll surely die, but two our players will catch then unprepared, two guys they will kill from back, snipers will be catched reloading/healing. I had score 1:1, but my team leads 7:1.

I know what you mean, I sometimes act the same. That's I would call a gambit like in chess : sacrifice yourself for the good of the game ;)

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